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That's nice and all, but the administration is planning on returning to the fantasy that all births everywhere are born either male (XY) or female (XX) with absolutely no more effort made into determining the gender than a cursory examination of the child's gender at birth.

And what if you're one of those children born with both genitals, what then?

Being transgender is more than just identity for some people, for some people it's a matter of a doctor deciding they're male at birth and excising the other set of genitals, only to discover when they grow up that - guess what - they were actually born a woman.

But no, much better to dumb complex topics down so nascar joebob can kneejerk his opinion based on the bigotry he was raised in.

>>1048
are there really enough cases of that to make the system anything other than "A or B with acceptance that rare genetic oddities exist"? In their cases does their body not overall take after one or the other or rather in most cases? This is not a topic I normally speak up about however it seems like these cases are greatly exaggerated

>>1048
>it's a matter of a doctor deciding they're male at birth and excising the other set of genitals, only to discover when they grow up that - guess what - they were actually born a woman
Rather than transgendered, I would say this is a case of being misgendered. This is a really good argument for my proposal to have sex registered in all its biological diversity. Such a person should be able to see the truth on their birth certificate. Their parents and surgeon should be prepared to be held accountable for that decision when such an individual comes of age.

>administration is planning on returning to the fantasy
Yeah. Unfortunately the leader of the free world is also one of its biggest idiots.

>>1049
There are. People don't like to talk about it--parents often don't even tell their children what was done to them, and some never figure it out.

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>>1049
That there even are any cases makes A or B isn't a valid system for all citizens. The system works for everyone or it doesn't work for anyone. You probably should read a little more philosophy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

Just because something makes politicians cry big fake tears isn't enough of a reason to strip constitutional and human rights away from actual living breathing citizens. "Tax paying" citizens in conservative terms since those are the only people conservatives care about (though they love tax cheats enough to elect them).

It's all fun and games to say "well you know its rare" until of course that rare thing happens to you. Then suddenly you're an Obamacare critic who refused to sign up for the ACA only to discover that they need to sign up for the ACA to be able to afford a life-saving treatment but boo hoo hoo open enrollment period is over.

>>1050
But at the end of the day if they were born with a woman's body, a woman's brain, that was made a male by a doctor after birth, they line between a transgender person and a misgendered person isn't worth fighting over because they have much of the same issues.

>>1050
to simply say "there are" doesn't really show me that there are. Any time I've looked into things like this for reports I find nothing but rare cases across the world which is why I'm asking.
>>1052
I'm not just saying "well you know it's rare". I'm saying that a system of labeling can be A or B and accept that there are rare outliers and address those outliers respectfully while still saying "A or B is how this functions". I don't care about politicians and I'm not against people being taken care of and treated with dignity. I just don't quite feel the mindset is right when the fact appears to be that A or B is the genetic standard aside from clear unusual occurrences.

>>1052
>a woman's brain
What?

>>1054
>show me
Nothing ever will. You're one of these 'citation needed' kids raised on Wikipedia who isn't capable of absorbing real-world experience without confirming it by looking up a reference on the internet. Go meet some people.

>a system of labeling can be white or darkie and accept that there are rare outliers and address those outliers respectfully while still saying "white or darkie is how this functions"
See how that doesn't work?

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>>1058
You're one of those gullible fools who thinks Trump is actually a billionaire because he says he is.

>>1059
..and you base that on?

On the contrary, I know he's a con artist. He's the biggest con in the world right now--he conned his way into the most influential office on the planet. Sooner or later the United States is going to realize it got swindled. I hope its before he scams us of our entire GDP, but I feel like it won't be until years after he leaves office.

>>1060
In fairness you did state that asking for sources was a weakness, instead of simply asking for someone's "common sense" bullshit to be grounded in evidence-based data (aka facts) or simply admit that they're just making shit up to suit their personal agenda (aka common sense).

>>1063
>making shit up to suit their personal agenda (aka common sense)
That is not 'common sense'; that is your Wikipedo paranoia of information.

>In fairness
In fairness to what?

It's not asking for sources in and of itself that is a weakness, but asking for sources about something you could easily discover for yourself by having a social life. Not every fact is published; not every publishment is fact. Real-world experience is not only a valuable source of information, but a reliable source of information and in some cases the only source of information.

I know, it's hard, but just try to put your smartphone down for a few minutes and talk to someone--anyone--face-to-face.

>>1064
>having a social life
You could find that LGBT people are people and not monsters by expanding your social life.

I know its hard, but imagine a life that isn't controlled by your evangelical megachurch.

>>1065
Not that guy, but this has been driving me nuts.
Why is it lgbt?

I understand a lesbian, gay, and bi community forming as they have common ground in differing sexual preferences, but what does being trans have to do with being gay or bi?

I feel like there's a really big difference between being attracted to the same sex or both sexes and wanting to be a different sex.

>>1065
>You could find that LGBT people are people and not monsters
You just throw shit out there, don't you?
Do you have any reason to believe this is what I think?

>>1067
>Why is it lgbt?
It's LGBTTQQIAAP now. What they all have in common is facing discrimination related to their sexual orientation and/or "gender". There's a lot of cross-over (pun intended) and vaguery between them.

To be honest, I don't care how people get their satisfaction. If you need to cut off your genitals and be dressed like a female clown while getting your ass rammed by a horse you call 'Mommy' to get off, so be it. I don't think that conflicts with having the facts of your biology written down on your birth certificate.

I think what these people are afraid of is that they may then have to show such a birth certificate to people they do not wish to be aware of what is written on it. The real problems here are, first, that people are shitty and may judge someone unfairly for identifying differently from how they were born, and second that birth certificates are required far too often--that's some very personal medical information that should only be used to establish citizenship and apply for social security.

Equally as important as being less shitty as people and protecting people's privacy however, I think, is to educate people that how you feel about your body is how you feel and it doesn't mean the body you have is incorrect--besides it's the only one you're ever going to get. You can sexually identify as an attack helicopter, and that's fine, you may take HRT and have gender reassignment surgery, and that's fine if you really need it to live a happy life, but it doesn't change the fact that you were born with a penis and XY chromosomes and that, medically speaking, you will always be male.

>>1058
absorb real world experience? Go meet some people?

I meet people every day as I'm a salesman by trade, where I live I do not run into people who stray from the norm all too often and when I do I use what social skills I have to keep treating them like another person. Asking for sources isn't something terrible to do either because when you substantiate a claim it can be made to have both logical and emotional grounding if you play things right making it easier to sway someone in a discussion.

the second statement is pure nonsense considering the variations in skin color are much more common than even the most amazing claims of sexual spectrum. It doesn't work because you took some of the words in my statement and jumbled them into nonsense.

>>1071
>took some of the words in my statement and jumbled them into nonsense
That's a funny way of saying "put my bigotry into context".

>when you substantiate a claim it can be made to have both logical and emotional grounding if you play things right making it easier to sway someone in a discussion
There you go again, assuming something is not true until someone gives you a link to read, as if you aren't going to then dispute their source because it also disagrees with your personal feelings.

Things can be true whether or not a publication you find credible has an article regarding them.

What do you sell? Barrels of bullshit?

>>1072
nice pile of assumptions you've got there, you are preparing yourself for arguments that may never come.

The context you are making up doesn't work because the statements are not equivalent in magnitude in any way, and I'm not concerned with whether I like a publication or not. I just want backing with real world numbers so that I can realistically put this into scope. you just saying "it happens a lot" could easily be a lie as far as I'm aware because in my real world experience I do not see this vast number of people fitting your description. Due to the nature of my trade I learn more about peoples personal lives more quickly than you would normally in most social situations so I can confidently say that I have not met very many people who feel they themselves are outside of the normal A or B. This may simply be a product of where I live which is why I want something more than someones unproven word to show me that their claims are potentially the truth.

either way you can keep up with your hot assumptions but based on my experience in the real world and the lack of anything to the contrary even unsubstantial doesn't get us anywhere.

>>1073
...or maybe people don't talk to manure salesmen about their deep personal issues and you only pretend to have real relationships with customers because you have no actual social life you sad, autistic, bastard.

>>1075
Being angry and making up stories about my life is not a very convincing argument. I understand that someone asking you to back up your horse shit is frustrating but there's not much we can do about that besides asking you to grow up.

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>>1079
This sounds an awful lot like a guy who got fed up with people picking apart the links he gave in another topic. They were all lunatic-fringe websites and he couldn't understand why nobody would accept them as valid. Hence the comments about
>dispute their source because it also disagrees with your personal feelings

He's been down this path before and appears to have decided this is the better option.

I'm pretty sure he's a homeschooled loner preteen who covets what he can never have... friendship.

>>1081
>This sounds an awful lot like
I am not familiar with the situation you describe nor do I source information from lunatic-fringe websites. As I have repeatedly attempted to make >>1054 understand, my information comes from actual people in the real world, so there's nothing to link. If however, either of you would go outside in the daylight at meet some people, you would almost certainly be able to find the same information for yourselves.

>He's been down this path before and appears to have decided this is the better option.
You must not have been here long. Welcome to /civ/; it hasn't been around long either. I know I'm fighting the tide here; the next generation isn't going to know what's real unless they can look it up in 0.2 sec on Google.

Seriously, when you look up and the moon is full, do you know it's full or do you check an online calendar to make sure it's full?

>>1082
You truly are one of 7chans most special children.

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>>1083
Pic related.

>>1047
>what are chromosomes

>>1087
I'm trying really, really hard to understand what you are getting at here, but I keep coming around to "must be mindless post bot" because you make no sense.

A: You really don't know what chromosomes are and incorrectly greentexted your question because you are a crow.

B: You are trying to imply the post you are replying to displays a lack of awareness of chromosomes, although it is more or less entirely about genetic sexual variation.

C: You are trying to point out that most people are either unaware of, or unconcerned about genetic sexual variation, which is probably true--but why do so in character as one of them?

D: ?????

E: Anything but profit. There's no profit to be had here.

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>>1047
>Technically speaking, giving the choice of two genders based on either observable genitalia or genetic testing is insufficient
Facts are insufficient for faggots that are living in a world of fantasies mixed with reality in a weird way.
Your identity is your own business but your actual physical sex is not always work this way. There is a lot of heterosexual people around that will not fuck a some ladyboy and will not go on a date with one of them.
And I personally do not want to date some fake girl. So gender identity can be your own concern as well as you do not interfere with someone who cares about having sex with actual woman.
It can be an issue when raising kids as well. I do not want some freak with a penis believing to be a real woman to look after my daughter you know.

>>1090
OP here, I'm going to imagine you aren't a poorly programmed Russian spambot trying to drum-up non-issues in order to divide and conquer the American public and reply to your post under the premise that you may well be a human being attempting to make some kind of statement.

>Your identity is your own business but your actual physical sex is not always work this way.
Giving your broken English the benefit of the doubt, I think you are agreeing with me here. When I say "there are a range of hermaphrodites, and a number of chromosomal variations that should be accounted for" I am talking about biological facts; these "genders" are not matters of opinion or interpretation--though hermaphrodites would have to settle for a blanket "hermaphrodite" or (roughly) "x% male y% female" on their birth certificates.

>There is a lot of heterosexual people around that will not fuck a some ladyboy and will not go on a date with one of them.
This is only an issue when a cis person makes a mistake and ends up in bed or on a date with a trans person whose gender they have misunderstood. It's an intensely uncomfortable and unfortunate situation to be in, and I hope both parties would recognize that. In such a situation, the cis person should do the trans person the courtesy of admitting their mistake and exiting as gracefully as possible while the trans person should do the cis person the courtesy of accepting that preference does not imply prejudice and not attempting to make the situation any more uncomfortable than it already is.

>I personally do not want to date some fake girl.
That's fine.

>do not interfere with someone who cares about having sex with actual woman.
I don't think anyone is trying to do that, anywhere on the planet Earth. This is, however, the mission of the Gayniggers from Outer Space.

Trans people are not trying to trick you. Personally, I think they are trying to trick themselves, but that's another issue. Trans people who end up in bed with or on a date with cis people who are unaware of their trans status have probably not deliberately deceived them so much as they keep their trans status to themselves until it is absolutely necessary to discuss it.

>I do not want some freak with a penis believing to be a real woman to look after my daughter you know.
The difficulty with this is how legal it would be for you to ask someone about their medical history, and particularly about their biological gender. It's not just about protecting your children from what you may perceive as a transgender menace, but protecting trans people from discrimination and abuse. Moreover, the real problem here isn't whether or not the people caring for your children are the genders they appear to be, but how much you trust the people who care for your children not to rape them--no matter what gender they are or think they are. In an ideal world, trans people would just as much not rape your children as cis people, but in the world we live in both trans and cis people are known to occasionally rape children--and that includes women who rape girls.

>>1091
>poorly programmed Russian spambot
I am Ukrainian
There is 8 most spoken languages and English is just one of them. Not the only one. Most people on a planet do not speak it. Much more people than live in US. So you can be less arrogant fag if you learn it. But I doubt you can.

>in order to divide and conquer the American public
Americans will do this things to their society anyway. Still I do think russians are faggots doing all this useless shit online and by the way invading my country IRL. But I think you do not realise why they do it in such stupid and obvious manner. Back to our conversation:

>there are a range of hermaphrodites, and a number of chromosomal variations that should be accounted for
These are not real genders. They are just illnesess. 0.001 subjects with broken DNA are statistically invalid examples
>In such a situation, the cis person should do the trans person the courtesy of admitting their mistake and exiting as gracefully as possible while the trans person
To prevent such situations trans should stop trying to look like a normal person with one of two other existing sexes and admit that he or she is ill and there is still no cure for this.
And cis person should handle trans as a sort of disabled. Or should not and handle trans as a pervert which it may often be.
Or any other way cis person finds appropriate.
Why **you** dictate normies how they should behave with disabled and/or perverts?
>I don't think anyone is trying to do that
There had been pedo trying to get a blowjob from me when I was 13. There was a gay couple offering sex when I was 15.
That people exists and I had been flee disgusted. Not all perverts are good guys and you have to admit that.

>Trans people are not trying to trick you.
That is because there even less trans than gay or lesbians. And hey, why thay play opposite sex, not some third one?
>Personally, I think they are trying to trick themselves, but that's another issue.
Still an issue.
>Trans people who end up in bed with or on a date with cis people who are unaware of their trans status have probably not deliberately deceived them so much
Any proof of "not deliberately"?
Damage is done anyway. Do you think there should be no punishment for those who commit crimes "not deliberately" ?

>It's not just about protecting your children from what you may perceive as a transgender menace
It is not a transgender menace. It is just some pedophile pervert trying to disguise and using some pills to play woman.

>protecting trans people from discrimination and abuse
If they are that ill they cannot be held responsible for their actions like some schisophrenics or other mentally ill then yes. They should be protected. If they are responcible for their actions - they are malicious perverts and should be judged.
>In an ideal world, trans people would just as much not rape your children as cis people
In an ideal world mentally ill people should not be allowed to look after kids. No exceptions.
But we live in a real one

In short: trans are mentally and physically ill. And normies should either isolate them or make them to take full responsibility on their actions like normal ones take. No "please protect them they are so special" bullshit

>>1092
>Ukrainian
I see. I can admit to my arrogance, but please understand poorly programmed Russian spambots that seek to undermine American society are real. Trust is not something one should invest in anything on the internet.

>Americans will do this things to their society anyway
In fact, yes, we will. I think the Russians are taking advantage of our weakness, similarly to how they took advantage of a minor ethnic conflict to annex Crimea.

>There had been pedo trying to get a blowjob from me when I was 13. There was a gay couple offering sex when I was 15.
Sick fucks trying to seduce you is not interference with your sexuality. They did not prevent you from having the sex you want with women. Your parents should have been there to protect you and you had to learn to stick up for yourself.

Of course, knowing the part of the world you come from, I'm surprised you weren't sold to a "child modeling" agency at age four.

>trans are mentally and physically ill
I think you need to deal with your insecurity regarding trans people. If your argument was that gender dysphoria were a mental illness I could understand it, but you aren't separating genetic variations from people who just feel like a different gender than they were born. However you feel about genetic variation, some people are born with legitimate cause to consider that the gender their doctor wrote on their birth certificate is incorrect. I am proposing we give doctors more options to write down so that does not happen.

Perhaps, in the future, we will overcome the scientific and moral hurdles necessary to correct such things at the embryonic stage, so that all humans will be born either fully male or fully female. However, we will never "cure" gender dysphoria or homosexuality; we will have to learn to live with them.

Besides, the real problem isn't who people choose to be or their sexual preferences--cisgendered straight people rape children just as much as anybody else. You think transgendered people are more likely to rape children based on your own anecdotal experience, and you think transgendered people are insidiously trying to fool cisgendered people into mistaking them for the opposite sex because... well I can't think of any logical reason why anyone would ever think that but it seems you do...

If you really want change to happen, try approaching the issue logically and not emotionally. Your feelings prevent you from making a sound argument, and make you sound like an idiot even more than your broken English.

>>1093
>They did not prevent you from having the sex you want with women.
Maybe it is so because I had escaped
>Your parents should have been there to protect you and you had to learn to stick up for yourself.
My parents can't be around all the time as well as police (which does not serve and protect us well here in Ukraine)
>Of course, knowing the part of the world you come from, I'm surprised you weren't sold to a "child modeling" agency at age four.
There was no such organised agencies when I was 13 so lucky me.

>I think you need to deal with your insecurity regarding trans people.
There is no some major insecurity. It is just minor disgust like something I fell for mentally broken people with Down syndrome for example.

>If your argument was that gender dysphoria were a mental illness I could understand it
Gender dysphoria is not normal. It is in fact a desease. And I think it is somehow more complex than pure _mental_ disorder. It is more like schisophrenia which still does not understood by science and more likely to be some hereditary disease.

>but you aren't separating genetic variations from people who just feel like a different gender than they were born.
Not all mental disorders are purely mental. Some of them is more like brocen genes we still cannot fix.

>However you feel about genetic variation, some people are born with legitimate cause
If you born with a crippled arms it does not mean you have a legitimate reason to demand "alternatively armed" status.

>I am proposing we give doctors more options to write down so that does not happen.
So "alternatively healthy" should be an option for someone with a knife sticking from back

>Perhaps, in the future, we will overcome the scientific and moral hurdles
There is no such things like scientific hurdles. Science operates facts, not opinoins. And yes, science will allow to fix broken genes sooner or later.
>However, we will never "cure" gender dysphoria or homosexuality; we will have to learn to live with them.
That is because you said so? Do not cure desease ut call it "alternative health"? You know what name for alternative medicine that really works? Medicine.

>Besides, the real problem isn't who people choose to be or their sexual preferences--cisgendered straight people rape children just as much as anybody else. You think transgendered people are more likely to rape children based on your own anecdotal experience
Mentally ill people are more likely to kill or rape or commit suicide.
Homosexuals have their suicide rate near 40% and it is not normal.
Schisophrenics are known to be able suddenly kill all their family members or even stranger.
Trans people are just less dangerous than schisophrenics but still mentally ill people are in fact more capable commiting crime.
Do you want statistics for such obvious statement or you can google it yourself? Still i admit normies are dangerous too. Medics had been found Chikatilo was normal mentally. And he was terrible serial killer and rapist.

>and you think transgendered people are insidiously trying to fool cisgendered people into mistaking them for the opposite sex because...
Not cisgendered people. All people including themselves. But there is much more cisgendered people around you know.

>well I can't think of any logical reason why anyone would ever think that but it seems you do...
There may be no logic in mentally ill human actions.

>If you really want change to happen, try approaching the issue logically and not emotionally.
What change? Did I said I want to change my opinion I already formed?
If so, where is real world facts that can change it? Not your words as an example of another anecdotal evidence but real facts.

>Your feelings prevent you from making a sound argument, and make you sound like an idiot even more than your broken English.
My argument is very simple: these people are mentally ill. And their perception of their gender is a result of their disorder. This perception has nothing in common with reality just like schisophrenic hallucinations.
How doctors cure schisophrenics? Well they at least do realize they patiets hallucinating and these hallucinations are very real for patients. But these hallucinations do not exists in reality.
Then medics supress these hallucinations and restore chemical balance in brain using pills.
There are still no methods to cure gender dysphoria but it does not mean trans are ok and we should invent billion legit names for their hallucinations and accept them as if they real.

>Maybe it is so because I had escaped
You have a point. Had you been captured and raped repeatedly for long enough to come to like it, you'd probably be faggot now.

>There is no some major insecurity. It is just minor disgust
You're pretty defensive for a person with no major insecurity.

>Gender dysphoria is not normal. It is in fact a desease. And I think it is somehow more complex than pure _mental_ disorder. It is more like schisophrenia which still does not understood by science and more likely to be some hereditary disease.
That's like, your opinion man.

>Not all mental disorders are purely mental. Some of them is more like brocen genes we still cannot fix.
True. Perhaps one day we will find a genetic source for some cases of gender dysphoria; I don't think we can account for all cases this way however. I'm also not saying we should cater to people who make up whatever "gender" they want to be. My point is that we are already aware of some variations in our genome, and whether or not they are diseases we should probably write down the whole truth on people's birth certificates so they can make and informed decision on how to live when they come of age.

>If you born with a crippled arms it does not mean you have a legitimate reason to demand "alternatively armed" status.
Have you seen that guy who plays piano with his feet?

>So "alternatively healthy" should be an option for someone with a knife sticking from back
This is absolutely irrelevant. You're trying to insinuate that writing down the chomosomal and anatomic details of someone's birth gender on their birth certificate is equivalent to admitting they can be whatever gender they want--which is entirely the opposite of why this should be done. The point is that people will know, factually, how they were born. Where they go from there I really don't give a fuck about.

>There is no such things like scientific hurdles.
Then why do you say:
>later.
We're actually pretty close now, with CRISPR and Cas9. We need to do a lot more testing, and I'm not sure we're up to correcting things like Down Syndrome (deleting a whole chromosome is required), but we're getting there. Unfortunately it's anybody's guess if or when we'll get over the moral scruples that prevent us from germline editing our own genome.

>That is because you said so? Do not cure desease ut call it "alternative health"?
Nope. Didn't say that.

>Mentally ill people are more likely to kill or rape or commit suicide.
I won't dispute that, but I will interpret it as people diagnosed with a mental illness by a qualified doctor--and they don't usually diagnose people solely on the basis of their homosexuality or transgender status.
>Homosexuals have their suicide rate near 40% and it is not normal.
You might want to consider they are also horribly oppressed by people like you. It's not easy being different and hated.
>Schisophrenics are known to be able suddenly kill all their family members or even stranger.
You don't need schizophrenia to do this. Lots of people who were not considered mentally ill at the time have done this.
>Trans people are just less dangerous than schisophrenics but still mentally ill people are in fact more capable commiting crime.
What kind of crimes are you talking about here? Do you really think trans people are out to rape and murder anyone they can get their hands on, or are you talking about petty theft? Seems to me like you fended off the menacing brutes fairly well as a child--perhaps they are not such menacing brutes?
>Do you want statistics for such obvious statement or you can google it yourself?
I am not one of those [citation needed] wikipedo faggots.

>there is much more cisgendered people around you know.
So?

>There may be no logic in mentally ill human actions.
You just admitted to being mentally ill.

>What change?
It seems apparent that you want homosexuals and transgendered people to go away and you are very upset that they won't.

>we should invent billion legit names for their hallucinations and accept them as if they real.
I'm not saying we should. I'm proposing we expand the slot for "gender" on birth certificates to include a broader range of factual genetic and anatomical information. That's all.

>>1094
>There was no such organised agencies when I was 13 so lucky me
I'm pretty sure there were organized groups of the kind he was referencing when you were 13.

He's talking about being sold into child sexual slavery.