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The Ketogenic Diet 14/12/01(Mon)08:42 No. 16691

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Hey /fit/,
After reading up on the ketogenic diet, I've come up with a couple of questions and qualms about it.
I know a couple of you here are firm adherents to the keto diet, so can you explain these please?

1- The brain works on glucose, and will have no substitute. Your body metabolizes the fats into ketone bodies, which can cause ketoacidosis if unmonitored. This state of constant mild hypoglycemia, I'm sure, leads to defects in mental function (named the "keto-mind-fog"). This is not as unsignificant as websites would have you believe, such a mind-fog would be devastating for people whose jobs require high mental output.

2- A high-fat diet means chylomicrons, VLDL, LDL, and HDL; bubbles of lipids and lipoproteins in your bloodstream, transporting the fuel to wherever it is needed. The problem is, a high LDL amount is linked and causative with vascular diseases like atherosclerosis. Conversely, a high HDL is linked with a reduction in such diseases. The function of HDL is to bring fats back to the liver to be metabolized during the fasting/hunger state. Does the (presumed) increase in HDL make up for the increase in LDL? Is it even safe to have so much lipids in the bloodstream to begin with? A high fat diet increases the expression of inflammatory mediators, which leads to all sorts of health problems, and also causes insulin resistance (the pivotal point of developing metabolic syndrome).

3- Besides supplements, you can only get a certain percentage of necessary micronutrients from a ketogenic diet, like minerals, folic acid, fat-burning phytochemicals like adiponectin. Also you consume a low amount of dietary fibre. Diets rich in fibre have been shown to reduce the risks of breast and colonic cancer. While red meat (especially the processed kind) has been shown to do the opposite. Is this trade-off for better physique/weight loss favorable?

4- Just making your portions smaller (calorie counting) combined with regular exercise should work with everyone (unless they have a medical condition - though I cannot think of any). Why should people try to adapt to such a drastic change in eating routine? It might be useful from a public health perspective to promote this in countries like the US where people drink sugary "soda"s to oblivion, but the Mediterranean diet provides a much better (though perhaps not as efficient) alternative in terms of overall nutrition. Wouldn't it be better to remove simple carbohydrates (like potato starch or simply sugar in the form of sweets, chocolate bars, etc.) from the diet in such countries?

Please don't get angry with me, I'm just trying to find out if there is something I've missed.

Anonymous 14/12/02(Tue)22:24 No. 16707

Mostly correct.

Although the health impact of a high fat diet is not that terrible.
And your body is capable of handling ridiculous amounts of proteins. Unless some very specific conditions.

I'd worry more about refined carbs.

Anonymous 14/12/04(Thu)15:07 No. 16721

Thanks for the response.
Yes, proteins are fine, I agree. But if I understood correctly, most keto-diets revolve around fats.
The paper you've cited shows that replacing saturated fats with unsaturated in one's diet results in a significant decrease in cardiovascular events (stroke, heart attack, etc.), which is expected. But it doesn't compare it to reducing the amount of total fat consumption (due to the research needing to be longer). The people didn't have a high-fat diet (or at least, it's not specified). There are two possibilities: 1- The only bad kind of fat is the saturated type, 2- People would benefit from reducing unsaturated fat as well. I'm leaning towards the latter, but this is only my opinion.

Refined carbs are certainly pretty bad, the reason being the fact that they play havoc with your blood sugar and leave you more prone to insulin resistance and diabetes - not to mention the hunger pangs you get after your blood sugar plummets. But you can get around that by not taking excessive sugar, white grain bread, and that kind of thing. Whole wheat/mixed-grain bread/pasta is a pretty good source. So are leafy vegetables (which also fibrous carbs as well). Fruits aren't that bad, though fructose is stored as fat if not utilized immediately, although this is an acceptable trade-off considering the amount of vitamins and other micronutrients you get from fruits (unless you are like me and end up eating a kilo of tangerines).

I also considered a long-term and short-term keto-diet. The diet, as some of you may know, is also used by infant epileptics to decrease the frequency of seizures (how that functions, nobody knows). This is a long-term diet (2 years), and of course, as the child is also growing during this period, it is done under a dietitian's supervision, with Vit D, iron, and calcium supplements; routine blood and urine controls. And even then, there is a risk of stunted growth, high cholesterol, kidney stones, and bone deformations.

On the short term, however... I'm not sure. If one really is keen on the keto diet, I guess it could be done. But I don't think it should go on longer than 2 months. I also don't think it should be done in clinically obese people (BMI>29.9) or people with already high cholesterol. Though I do think it could be a nice way to rapidly lose that 2 kg.s before the swimsuit season comes.

Anonymous 14/12/29(Mon)03:32 No. 17020

Keto enthusiast here.
1- The brain can derive up to 60% of his energy requirements to the use of ketone bodies. Also, you're not on a constant state of hypoglycemia, since the liver is synthesizing glucose from amino acids and the low insulin release you have maintains the levels pretty ok. I never felt mentally clearer than when I was in keto, and I even get into a keto when I have finals coming and need my brain working at it's most.
2- That is long to explain, but the levels of LDL and cholesterol go lower on a ketogenic diet. You should give a read to The Ketogenic Diet, by Lyle McDonald, it's amazingly clear and explains this part quite well. I experimented this descend myself, but it's impossible to tell if it's due to the diet itself or to the fact that one's losing weight, as in any diet the blood level of this compounds tend to go down.
3- Fibber is really hard to get and that caused my abandon of the diet every time. Of course you can eat a lot of vegetables, as cellulose isn't even digested and thus that glucose won't fuck your diet up. The thing is I don't like them you know? but you can eat tons of salads on a keto if you want to.
4- Calorie counting tend to fail due to the accordion effect (you need to restrict more calories each time to get the same effects due to changes in hormonal regulation). Also, a ketogenic diet is a great way to adapt to a new relation with food and to restrict useless food groups, and after you've been on one you'll never go back to the eating patterns you had before.

Try to give a read to the mentioned book by Lyle McDonald. Unlike me, the guy isn't a defender of the diet, he simply gives facts and marks the pros and cons of the diet from a real perspective.

Anonymous 15/01/03(Sat)07:47 No. 17083

I eat mostly vegetables, grains, fruits, and meats. Keto is not my thing.
There are clear benefits to eating fruits and vegetables:

On fat: read that review again.
Total fat consumption is as far as we know unimportant.
So, reducing saturated (and trans fat) intake is a good idea, Lowering other fats: nothing.

Then again 14% lower cardiovascular risk.
This is not much. I'll still eat pork, thank you.
Compare to the risk of untreated hypertension, sedentary lifestyle, diabetes.

You can also play around with qrisk

Though I doubt those guys were thinking about someone eating only fat and meat.

And on the point of keto and obese people.
What is worse, keto or obesity? Let them do keto.
Same goes for bariatric surgery. Not healthy but obesity is worse.

Anonymous 15/01/07(Wed)09:31 No. 17127

1- Extremely laughable that this is taught in science as the brain running strictly on glucose, all organs in the absence of dietary glucose can operate on ketones produced by the liver, and the carb requirements of the brain once fat adapted may drop to 30g per day, all of which will be produced as a by product of glycolysis (approx 20g per day) and the rest from gluconeogenisis up to 150g per day. Fatty acids are unable to cross the barrier and provide energy to the brain and this is why glucose is able to be used as fuel, but when those fatty acids are broken down into ketones they can cross the barrier and provide energy. The brain and other organs also seem to operate extremely well on ketones and may be the reason we survived as a species in times where food was scarce, what kind of shitty predator would we be if we're too weak to walk after a couple days without carbs.

On keto it's almost impossible to go into hypo-glycemia unless you're already a type 1 diabetic. On Keto you should have an almost perfectly stable blood glucose level, and after about 6 months on the diet you will probably see it closer to the higher end of fasting blood glucose levels of SAD individuals.

The mind fog is a bit of a misnomer. It certainly does happen and with a couple reasons. Partially it is withdrawl from carbs but ketosis itself requires the liver to be emptied of glycogen to occur and will also dump about 30% muscle glycogen as a result. This acts as a bit of a diuretic and flushes fluids from the body, since you have less water in your body you need to supplement salt and potassium to approx 5g each per day (also approx 400mg Mg) and any mind fog or keto flu is directly attributable to this. You need salt and potassium for your nervous system to work properly and in order to maintain water balance in the cells. That mind fog is usually a combination of low fluids and electrolytes. After you hit ketosis, provided you're hydrating etc, most people notice a sudden clarity and are able to think much more effectively or clearly than before, and would actually tell you the opposite, that how they perceived everything before was through a fog.

I'll touch on this quickly as well, just because you hold less muscle glycogen doesn't mean you're weaker, once your mitochondria adapt to burning fat you will actually spare more muscle glycogen in high output activities than you would normally because you will be able to triple your fat burning potential.

2- You might want to read up on more recent studies for cholesterol, http://highsteaks.com/cholesterol/. Particle size may be more important than count. Initially there may be an increase in all cholesterol in overweight or obese individuals because of rapid weight loss and release of body fat but over time, lets say 6 months lipid panels usually show improvement. While LDL particle counts may rise, this is typically the fluffy large particle LDL that isn't likely to cause damage to arteries.

3- Very little supplementation is needed at all on Keto and many regular "requirements" are drastically reduced when you cut out grains and carbs (Ascorbic acid for example). It's also possible to eat an entirely carnivorous diet and get all the micro nutrients you need as long as you add organ meats. Unlike a vegetarian or vegan diet where you cannot continue without at the very least Vitimin B supplementation, and it's shown time and tiem again that plant proteins are inferior in quality to meats. On the other hand the easiest thing to do is to add dark leafy greens to the diet in order to more easily get some of the nutrients you may lack.

This also brings us to fibre, which is a huge pet peeve of mine. There's is little to no proof at all that fibre is useful in anyway. A lot of the problems it claims to fix are also caused by it. http://highsteaks.com/fiber/ I apologize for linking the site but it's a lot easier than going and linking all the source studies themselves and asking you to read all of them. I agree with you on the processed meats, due to the nitrates it's really not ideal but that's why you should try and eat whole foods.

4- While calorie counting does work for most people it isn't a very good option for anyone with insulin resistance as it ignores the real problem of why they're fat. For these people it's more important to lower insulin in the blood in order to allow for mobilisation of fatty acids to fix hormone levels and eating habits. If they can do that without low carb then great, whatever works.

I for one eat this way because from all the research I've done it seems like a much healthier and extremely easy way to live than I was previously. I've been eating ketogenic for a year and a half. Anecdotally I haven't had a single migraine since (used to be a weekly to bi-weekly occurence) and it's lowered my blood pressure from a whopping 187/110 or whatever the hell it was to 118/79. My diet esentially consists of, meats, cheese, nuts, avacado, dark greens, butter, heavy cream, coconut oil, coffee, and 3 dozen eggs a week.

Anonymous 15/01/31(Sat)15:29 No. 17319

File 142271454298.gif - (2.38MB , 510x287 , rDnP2IgtBzLtWWYso1TwY58GjrFnVv6VDjoMsqwBXklL7epx3c.gif )

Fucking good read

Anonymous 15/02/05(Thu)17:03 No. 17370

how often do you poop and how are your bowel movements?

Anonymous 15/02/20(Fri)17:04 No. 17561

This is just a fleeting reply, I don't have the necessary amount of concentration at the moment:

Dietary fibre is known to decrease cholesterol (we even know the mechanism behind it), it also gives a better-tolerated consistency and frequency to your bowel movements. Heck, there is quite a lot of research suggesting it decreases the risk of colorectal carcinoma; and the opposite is true for red meat.
Your paragraph proves my point that the brain needs glucose to operate. Gluconeogenesis is the body's way of creating glucose (gluco-neo-genesis), so it can be used by organs (especially the brain and muscles -though via different means) in the fasting-state. There is nothing laughable about this (and I don't like your tone in this sentence either). The liver creates glucose so the brain uses it. Why? Because the brain will have nothing else.
"Fluffy large particle LDL that doesn't damage arteries" there is no consensus on this subject. But I'll give you the benefit of doubt. Even so, what makes pattern A (large fluffy) levels increase? What makes them decrease? Fasting? Diabetes? We can't say for certain at the moment.
If the person indeed does have insulin resistance, then the bad thing to do for them would be to get on a diet they themselves have cooked up (instead of one given by a dietitian).
Although I'm pleased with the insight you've provided, you know that anecdotal evidence is pretty much useless...
Let's keep the discussion going though (I had forgotten I had created this thread)

Anonymous 15/03/01(Sun)01:16 No. 17675

Hello 7/fit/

I come to you as a refugee. I apologize for necroing the thread but the other /fit/ is anti keto. Here's my question:

Okay keto vets, I get into ketosis about 2 weeks out of the month. I understand the basics about alcohol and ketosis. Thing is I've never personally done it.

I'm currently in ketosis and I know my preferred drink (whiskey) will not kick me out of ketosis, but it will slow the fat burning process due to my body burning the alcohol before the ketones. I know all the alcohol has to be gone first, but how long does this process take? How long would it take for my body to burn say, 5 shots, and return back to burning ketones? Just the 300-500 calories from the whiskey?

Anonymous 15/03/05(Thu)03:05 No. 17705

OP here

I'd refrain from drinking alcohol while dieting, because it's basically just empty useless calories (and impairs your fitness as well). (you probably knew this, but I'll say it anyways)

However, those kinds of dry drinks (vodka, whiskey, gin, etc.) are probably the best you can go to in a keto diet, because they do not contain any carbohydrates (afaik). So, I think you should be fine once you burn the alcohol calories (easily done if you work out regularly).

Anonymous 15/08/10(Mon)20:01 No. 18437

There's evidence that alcohol improves insulin resistance and stuff like that.
Most of what you said is true, gets a little more biased/bullshitty towards the end.

Some people do exceptionally well on ketogenic diets... Others don't, some do well eating lotz of carbs. Don't expect everyone to respond like that. Not everyone is the same. But it's awesome you get that effect on keto and are enjoying it so much.

milk the cow more Anonymous 15/09/27(Sun)21:54 No. 18527

try the gimp mask diet

you sleep all the time in a gimp mask

when you wake up. you're much fitter.

cos you didn't get too milky milky.


Anonymous 15/11/12(Thu)16:18 No. 18630

Here is a free book that critiques keto.

Really the best argument for ketosis is "fat-adaption". However fat adaption also implies developing carbohydrate intollerance.

Anonymous 15/11/24(Tue)23:49 No. 18656

Wasn't that site written by some vegan advocate?

OP, keto isn't bad, but I definitely suggest that you eat it with the long term in mind rather than eat it on and off just to lose weight. I'm going to use some broscience, but it works for me, and there are studies out there you could cite. Keto is not intended for performance sports, even if you use cyclical or targeted carb loading. It simply doesn't fill up your muscle glycogen sufficiently fast, and any high intensity activity will begin to catabolize your muscle. A lot of keto's weight loss comes from 1. taking out water weight, 2. controlling appetite. The latter is probably the most important part of keto and why it works so often, especially for the diagnosed obese. I find that on keto, I don't think about food quite as much, although I'm pretty sure the "more energy off of fats deal" is pretty much placebo. You won't feel weak or foggy after you're fat-adapted (it can take up to 3 weeks for this to occur), but you certainly will not have the same amount of energy as if you were eating maintainence.
Blood panels typically turn up okay once you are fat-adapted, I would say blood panels may be of the least concern because keto typically makes you consume slightly more fats and proteins (to retain muscle) and simply cut out carbohydrates whilst replacing it with fibrous vegetables. This reduces LDL while increasing HDL, and triglycerides go way down. You shouldn't be eating significantly more saturated fats than before. The most scary palpitation I got was when I was running a 10k and got potassium deficiency from the amount of sweat I was losing. You need to make sure you are supplemented, which is the main hassle of keto - consume more than enough sodium and potassium.

Typically the good parts of keto comes from making portion control quite easy and reducing controlling leptin. In my opinion, those who claim "insulin resistance" or "muh ketones" are ignoring the fact that dropping carbs down to about 100g a day can do just the same (and consuming more whole grains/fiber/low GI foods). IR, however, has less of a negative impact in keto dieters due to the fact that very little glucose is consumed anyway, only some are created by metabolizing fatty acids and most energy composed by excess ketones.

My main concern is that ketogenic diets are displayed as "the diet" which leads to a lot of cycling and "bulking and cutting" which simply eliminates any positive effects of ketosis. Ketosis can be done, but you definitely should be braced for the long run, lest you want to gain weight back and then some.

Mike rashid peter 15/12/16(Wed)11:33 No. 18701

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i need mike rashids overtraning program

Anonymous 17/06/29(Thu)19:37 No. 19756

>A high-fat diet means chylomicrons, VLDL, LDL, and HDL; bubbles of lipids and lipoproteins in your bloodstream, transporting the fuel to wherever it is needed. The problem is, a high LDL amount is linked and causative with vascular diseases like atherosclerosis. Conversely, a high HDL is linked with a reduction in such diseases. The function of HDL is to bring fats back to the liver to be metabolized during the fasting/hunger state. Does the (presumed) increase in HDL make up for the increase in LDL? Is it even safe to have so much lipids in the bloodstream to begin with? A high fat diet increases the expression of inflammatory mediators, which leads to all sorts of health problems, and also causes insulin resistance (the pivotal point of developing metabolic syndrome).
These are dietary memes

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