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Historian 12/06/29(Fri)20:35 No. 12695
12695

File 134099491881.jpg - (191.91KB , 1063x602 , clash-bild.jpg )

What does /hi/ think of Huntingdon's Clash of Civilizations theory?

Does it actually hold any water to you?


>>
Historian 12/06/29(Fri)22:04 No. 12698

To me? Not at all. Huntington seems to have revived a version of British scientific racism- "We obviously can't live together- we're too different!"

Forget the fact that his 'cultures' that are supposed to be diametrically opposed are often interdependent and share basic structure could you imagine a Frenchman bashing an Italian for being the wrong kind of Catholic?

Another thing Huntington seems not to get, is that Islam, his big scary bugbear, isn't a single thing- it's not a culture. An Indonesian Muslim will have absolutely nothing in common with a Muslim from Madagascar, and Islam itself is divided into sects much like Christianity after the reformation- not many sects, but enough to make distinctions- even deadly ones.

I don't know, it seems a bit pseudo-scientific to me.


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Historian 12/06/30(Sat)00:36 No. 12699

>>12698

All of the social sciences are pseudo-scientific.


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Historian 12/06/30(Sat)10:41 No. 12701

I think recent history has proven it wrong. As soon as people (not the rulers, like in petro-states) in the islamic Sphere are given a modicum of democracy, stability and prosperity, everything works out. See Turkey, Indonesia and to a lesser extent Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.


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Historian 12/06/30(Sat)11:27 No. 12703

So what's South East Asia? They clearly have their own way of life, yet they're not highlighted.
Also, India and China have many, many, many subcultures. It's wrong to group them all into one.


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Historian 12/06/30(Sat)13:24 No. 12704

>>12703
That's the thing- the only way this theory works is by negating the vast nuance and diversity of human culture. It's harder to "RAWR RAWR MUSLIMEZ" when you dn't give a shit about distinctions, even subtle ones.


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Historian 12/06/30(Sat)17:43 No. 12706

>>12701

I don't think that actually undermines the theory - its proponents might argue that those countries have shifted sides in the culture clash, or simply taken themselves out of the conflict.

Instead, I think it's the increasing tension within Western democracies, the civil conflicts that have taken place since 2008 and look set to increase; and the new areas of potential conflict (between South American states, for instance) that show the Huntingdon was wrong: Economic and ideological differences are still fundamental sources of conflict.

We can go further and say that economic and ideological differences always actually underpinned the "clash of civilisations" and Huntingdon's theory was just a sham, but the much more tangiable point there has always been the massive differences (and on-going conflicts) within the cultural blocs he characterised.


>>
Historian 12/09/27(Thu)20:10 No. 13074

>>12699
Only people with massive ego's think that social 'sciences' are actually a science


>>
Historian 12/09/28(Fri)03:32 No. 13075

I think it's been thoroughly crapped on since it's so general.

That said, part of the theory is that conflicts in the 20th century are very likely to be in areas where two very different cultures neighbor one another, and I'd say that's pretty accurate.

Plenty of conflicts have occurred recently and are occurring all over the world between opposing nationalities like Israel/Palestine, Kurds vs everyone, Balkans, etc.


>>
Historian 12/10/03(Wed)04:11 No. 13084

Nope.

More like civilizations generally interact like...people.

Otherwise if it was really truly a HURR CLASH, we would not have been bothering to trade shit or exchange embassies with each other for a good duration of human history.


>>
Historian 12/10/05(Fri)18:34 No. 13094
13094

File 134945486863.jpg - (119.56KB , 1280x960 , 1269093355011.jpg )

>>12695
Typical modern Liberal hogwash justification for Orientalism & colonialism. This shit is as outdated as Fukuyama.


>>
Historian 12/10/13(Sat)12:04 No. 13105

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1984_fictitious_world_map_v2_quad.svg&page=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geopoliticaeurasia.jpg


people should not act as if the "clash of civilizations" is a risk game, or... they should, if they include chronic backstabbing disorder despite friendships otherwise, and always despite these things, the desire to survive and thrive, for each way of life

civilizations as memes, the idea version of genes is a fair way of putting it


south american and african relations are probably semi decent in a way becaus both were conquered and colonized by europeans, without being "overrun" by english/other europeans

and as such still retain a large degree of native cultural elements - and a shared narrative and similar development pathway

india was dominated by britain for a while, and won it's independence in a different manner than the chinese, who are a cross between india and russia, while russia is a cross between china and europe

southeast asia is an odd grouping, but I suspect it's a combination of chinese, indian and western-australian influence as well as some colonial influences all combined in that area

the middle east has always been so strategic as a position that the constant fighting going on in that area eroded any chance for lasting peace in a stable empire-civilization body without help, because even if it got it's own act together, due to it's location, all the other neighbouring empires would gang up on it for their own gain (ripping it apart to get at each other, not even bothering to worry about keeping the middle east down usually because it happens as a byproduct every time they fight)


>>
Historian 12/10/17(Wed)12:37 No. 13116

>>12698
Seconded.

I think it's very easy to have people buy into you when you come up with an argument which plays up to peoples fears, but it's not particularly difficult or insightful to do so.


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Historian 12/10/21(Sun)12:20 No. 13129

>>13094
I find that people use the word liberal a lot for things they don't like
I suggest you look up the definition of the word


>>
Historian 12/10/21(Sun)23:32 No. 13130

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal

it's a big tent

and it moves


>>
Historian 12/10/22(Mon)02:24 No. 13131

It's bullshit when he says that the Native African population has any sort of current civilization.


>>
Historian 12/10/22(Mon)22:12 No. 13134
13134

File 135093672221.jpg - (120.93KB , 500x333 , cogswell-vs-spacely.jpg )

>It's a big propaganda machine, with lots of cogs.

i'm a sprocket kinda guy...


>>
Historian 12/10/25(Thu)05:28 No. 13139

>>13132
While I agree to some extent, I've also been noticing the escalating anti-government stance of the Conservatives, & it wouldn't be a stretch to call their more extreme fringe anarchists either. Funny.


>>
Historian 12/10/25(Thu)07:18 No. 13140

"anarchists to the left of me,
anarchists to the right of me,
into the valley of death rode the six hundred"


>>
Historian 12/10/25(Thu)17:48 No. 13142

hawkish, not openly racist because of the profile of huntington, devolves relationships between men into an inexistant set of rigid rules. Culture has influence, but not anywhere near that much. It was basically just a book underscoring a trend in US right wing IR theories at the time. It died fast, most serious institutions acknowledge its existence but refute it immediately as bullshit.


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Daniel 13/03/17(Sun)17:55 No. 13592

I do want to point out that in this map apparently only Transilvania and not all Romania is a part of Europe, and the rest of the country is under Islam (when the country as a whole is 98% Christian).

Maybe the West dosn't care or even wants the country to be split again. Not nice, not nice.


>>
Historian 13/03/19(Tue)02:39 No. 13595

>>13592
And Xinjiang is not part of China anymore and apparently he decided to preemptively give the senkaku islands to japan and jesusfuckingchristit'saromanianhidethesilverware.


>>
Historian 13/05/14(Tue)00:56 No. 13742

>>13592
>>13595
I live in a country that's not even colored in, how do you think that makes ME feel?


>>
Historian 13/05/24(Fri)09:20 No. 13764

>>13742
My country is cut off the edge of the map.


>>
Historian 13/05/26(Sun)04:53 No. 13766

I'm a mooninite, are there any martians who are equally outraged at being left out?


>>
Historian 13/05/28(Tue)03:31 No. 13767

>>12698
>>13074
It does get hard to study humans in a non biological/mathmatical way, but we are not describing them in external appearance or attributes, we are looking at behaviour which is highly chaotic when you zoom in on people, a science based in math just doesnt cut it. But i do agree it sometimes get retarded and simplistic like this "theory"


>>
Historian 13/06/12(Wed)04:29 No. 13805

>>12695
EUROPE will change from 'westlische welt' to 'islamische staatenwelt' quite soon (during our lifetime) , Id give about 20 years for France, maybe 50 for Germany & not too much after this the rest of the europe,,


>>
Historian 14/04/11(Fri)16:35 No. 14259

>>12695
based north mexico (Hermosillo to be exact) is in the north american area, which is fitting because you can't seriously compare the north of mexico with the rest of mexico culturally. yay


>>
Historian 14/04/20(Sun)04:11 No. 14268

>>12699
this


>>
Historian 14/05/10(Sat)22:28 No. 14288

>>12695
Argentina and Chila are pretty muh white countries wo they would be the 'Western World'.

Also Haiti/Jamaica is part of 'aFrican civilization'

>>13764
>>13742
this isnt the map huntington uses actually.

>>13131
hmm?



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