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/phi/ - Philosophy
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A mind that affects matter Anonymous 22/09/17(Sat)14:23 No. 15149 ID: 02e9f5

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>For the experimental data, the outcome supported a pattern of results predicted by a causal psychophysical effect

>...these results were found to support von Neumann’s conclusion that the mind of the observer is an inextricable part of the measurement process.

>Baer's independent analysis confirmed that the optical apparatus used in this experiment was indeed sensitive enough to provide evidence for a psychophysical effect.

>The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem.

Apparently there is a strong aversion within the scientific community regarding how consciousness tends to go beyond regular cause and effect when you measure its influence on its surroundings. The materialistic interpretation of reality fails to explain why these unusual occurences exist and why you can never see a physical link between these events.

Are you convinced that there is only matter in this universe and nothing else?

Anonymous 22/09/23(Fri)23:24 No. 15151 ID: 410853

I am curious. Matter is, by definition, that which can be measured. Then by opposing consciousness to matter, you mean that it can't be measured? If it can't be measured, how can you tell that it exists? You say, here, look at these measurable effects it has on these experiments. Then it can be measured. Then it is matter.

Anonymous 22/09/24(Sat)18:28 No. 15152 ID: 44545e

That's quite a sophistic post you just made there. The experiments show that you can't explain the mind as tangibly affecting its surroundings. So if there is no physical link then the mind isn't physical.

Anonymous 22/11/03(Thu)08:48 No. 15170 ID: 9936ef

I don't think materialism is a valid point of view because when you examine the so called "laws" of physics you begin to realize that they are only applicable to our known corner of this unfathomable universe. How do you prove entropy exists in other parts of the cosmos if you have no clue what the conditions are or how to study them? It all boils down to assumptions and conjecture. How do you know the speed of light doesn't change depending on where you are or if matter behaves the same way everywhere? Physicists can only grasp a tiny fraction of everything that is contained in the giant void.

Anonymous 22/12/17(Sat)18:09 No. 15197 ID: 7d5109

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>Reciprocity of knowledge and organization vindicates Wigner's claim that "reciprocal to the action of matter upon mind there exists a direct action of mind upon matter

Most physicists are actually scared of talking about the uncertainty of matter. They've realized that the deeper you dissect the framework of reality, the more you become less and less convinced of its absolute hegemony.

Anonymous 22/12/19(Mon)14:37 No. 15198 ID: 31beea

I honestly think most of this stems from incorrect science. Bad data, bad interpretations of data, bad instruments... Turns it into magic.

I ironically do believe in magic, but the idea that the brain is changing anything external is ego. Vanity the great deceiver

Anonymous 23/01/13(Fri)14:08 No. 15218 ID: 33d9c0

The research is really sturdy and demands a lot of precautions due to the nature of the experiments. I think you just avoid acknowledging its legitimacy because it interferes with your own view of reality. It’s easier to dismiss it as false because science is supposed to only reaffirm ’correct’ science, a.k.a consensus.

The+Red+Barron 23/01/22(Sun)10:14 No. 15225 ID: 7cb4c3


Anonymous 23/01/27(Fri)10:43 No. 15231 ID: 4fa9dc

>Basic philosophical assumptions count as biases because they skew the development of hypotheses, the design of experiments, the evaluation of evidence, and the interpretation of results in specific directions.
>Philosophical biases are typically acquired from science education, professional practice or other disciplinary traditions that define a scientific paradigm. This is why scientists with varying backgrounds might adopt different philosophical biases.

Occam’s Razor, as an example of philosophical bias, shows that scientists tend to conform to a certain paradigm. Simple answers are easy to digest and scientists always choose easy solutions. Consensus is the rule they all follow.

The+Red+Barron 23/02/09(Thu)08:17 No. 15236 ID: 7cb4c3

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I'm not after a consensus bro

I like when people disagree with me. I genuinely assume I am wrong if a single person agrees, and this has proven to be true quite often. What I'm after is truth.

Anonymous 23/03/03(Fri)09:23 No. 15243 ID: de2efa

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>A series of investigations are reviewed which indicate that suggestion (a) can block the skin reaction (dermatitis) that is produced by poison ivy-like plants, (b) can give rise to a localized skin inflammation that has the specific pattern of a previously experienced burn, (c) can be effective in the cure of warts, (d) can ameliorate congenital ichthyosiform erythrodermia (“fish skin disease”), and (e) can stimulate the enlargement of the mammary glands in adult women. Experiments are also summarized supporting the hypothesis that the aforementioned suggested phenomena may be due, in part, to localized alterations in blood flow to the skin and other organs that can occur when certain types of suggestions are accepted.

It is well-documented that the mind can alter the structure of the body. Hypnotic states during surgery is also something that makes sedatives obsolete, proving further that the mind can affect matter.

The+Red+Barron 23/03/10(Fri)14:35 No. 15248 ID: fff4f2

lmao, please go play with poison ivy then

what a bunch of absolute shit, lmfao

Anonymous 23/03/15(Wed)13:41 No. 15254 ID: a0412d

He's right, though. There are numerous studies detailing the effects of the mind. If you have sand in your vagina you don't have to take it out on others.

>The primary outcome data of interest were objective, observational measures of incision healing made at 1,7 weeks postoperatively by medical staff blind to the participants' group assignments.
>Results of this preliminary trial indicate that use of a targeted hypnotic intervention can accelerate postoperative wound healing and suggest that further tests of using hypnosis to augment physical healing are warranted.

Anonymous 23/03/17(Fri)09:37 No. 15256 ID: de2efa

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Hypnosis is very effective and a lot of surgeons have used it. The only reason it isn't practiced more often is because of social stigma among physicians. Keep in mind that almost all doctors are materialists and view everything as depending on genetic factors.

The+Red+Barron 23/03/19(Sun)16:12 No. 15260 ID: b23312

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Anonymous 23/03/23(Thu)09:34 No. 15262 ID: 7ed35b

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>One of the investigators (PNJ) drew an image in the presence of other investigators [HRN, BNG, and GVS]. Figures ​Figures 1A and ​and 2A were the images drawn by PNJ for the “mentalist” and the control subject while both were seated in separate rooms.
>Both the subjects were right-handed and possessed Master's Degrees.

There is a massive amount of strict ESP research that yield the same kind of results. Out of all possible ways you can draw a picture, without knowing anything about it, there is an amazing similarity.

The+Red+Barron 23/03/24(Fri)13:42 No. 15263 ID: 16e0f5

That's based off of a map of the sectors of the brain.

They both would have seen that image regularly in school

I did not read the article at all and can tell you they coaxed this drawing out of them, and it is hilariously entirely dissimilar yet

Anonymous 23/03/24(Fri)14:33 No. 15264 ID: b4a449

I don't think you understand how rigid the controls are in ESP research. You need independent observers that make sure you can't influence the subjects. Also, the patterns are really similar: the rectangular frame and the pattern is similar and the only thing that's missing is the circle and that's 2/3. Your objections are cute but they're born out of cope.

Wavegod 23/03/26(Sun)19:06 No. 15266 ID: bf4bff

Matter is physical, consciousness is what operates unseen behind matter so no one can physically measure it's effect on matter. Even chemical reactions are just physical manifestation of the conscious operations behind the chemicals.
My work works in similar manner, I can program skills like football, singing, dancing and skills like them into humans using a computer. I am currently testing an eternal life product, by the time I see results most of you may be old. Since it's expensive your payment for me giving you eternal life on Earth is to serve me for the rest of your life.
Money can not buy such stuff, I will then give you any skill you want to earn a living eternally. But to be eligible for my work, you must not take the covid vaccine and obey the ten commandments of God plus the other two that Christ gave.

Anonymous 23/03/26(Sun)20:11 No. 15269 ID: 7d5109

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I think those kinds of results are fascinating. Even a materialist physicist like Gerald Feinberg would classify that as a form of precognition. He hypothesized that there are waves that travel into the future and reverberate backwards in time.

>G. Feinberg
>Department of Physics
>Columbia University
>For example, suppose someone were going to observe an earthquake at noon, and become aware of it precognitively at 11:45. He could write out the sentence "There will be an earthquake at noon", and show it to other people. The recording of this sentence would then itself become a new stimulus, which could be recognized precognitively sometime before it was real, or ideally, more than the 15 minutes warning gained by the imagined precognition. This process could be repeated indefinitely, and so the warning time increased indefinitely.

Anonymous 23/03/27(Mon)01:05 No. 15270 ID: 254be0

Speaking of precognition.

I've once played css on the comedown of a pretty strong (like 1 mg) acid trip and I never played this well before unless just really lucky but in that particular case it was like I knew where someone's head would be before it was there and it would all happen so fast, but I legit had like half a second of precognition in that fractally de_dust2 and I admit I played with average players (a decade ago average was actually pretty fucking skilled), but I surprised myself by how insanely "lucky" I was.

Just a fun story of precognition. Bye

Anonymous 23/03/30(Thu)13:52 No. 15273 ID: 4e199d

Presuming these findings were true, wouldn't have major implications. A new field of study would probably be established, eventually allowing us to partially control reality?

Anonymous 23/04/01(Sat)18:13 No. 15274 ID: 7d5109

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There is actually some ESP research done by a man called Andrija Puharich that involve substance altered consciousness. He gave a test subject a dose of Amanita muscaria (Fly Agaric mushroom) and let him do a MAT test.

Quoted from pic related:
>He mumbled that he felt very, very drunk. Then he looked straight ahead and said that he felt he could see through the wall of the laboratory. He said that everything seemed so clear on the other side of the wall. I asked him what he saw, and he gave me an accurate description. But I also knew that he had prior knowledge of the other side of the wall and this could well be imagination. Therefore I delayed giving him the atropine in order to do one quick test of his seeming clairvoyance. I hastily blindfolded him, urging his co-operation, and placed him before the covered MAT test. I begged him to try to do one test. Aldous and I watched him closely. His hands fumbled over the picture blocks for about a minute. He just couldn't seem to make his hands follow his will power.
>I spoke sharply and commanded him to begin the test. He pulled himself together and completed the entire series of matching ten sets of pictures in about three seconds. He literally threw the two sets of picture blocks together. I took the cover away from the blocks, and was amazed to find that he had scored ten correct matches. The statistical odds against getting this score by chance alone were such that he would have had to do this test a million times before such a result would occur once. This was the most remarkable demonstration with the MAT test that he had done up to this date.

Anonymous 23/04/19(Wed)15:12 No. 15283 ID: 72bd96

Muscarine seems to be a mysterious substance.

Anonymous 23/04/29(Sat)01:59 No. 15289 ID: 3ceab3

I once did acid so much that I'd become my voice whenever I spoke. Just like REMEMBERING..

Anonymous 23/06/08(Thu)10:25 No. 15305 ID: c73c04

Good point. The same thing can be said about the mind. How do you know the mind is material when it can't be measured? What is the weight of a thought?
Another thing is that if you suggest a simple idea to several people (green cat on a blue table) how do you assemble those forms and colours from neurons and electric impulses? What quantities of components in the brain do you need to construct the exact same image in every single person without deviation? If you can't standardize the mind it is quite clear it isn't dependent on the brain itself.

Anonymous 23/07/05(Wed)21:35 No. 15312 ID: cdff10

We simply don't have access to the brain on that level yet. It's yet to be confirmed whether thoughts are irreducible but from what i've seen the answer is no, they are reducible.
Pretty much every area of neurology has interesting things documented that call into question what's going on in your mind

Anonymous 23/07/06(Thu)06:47 No. 15315 ID: c1dee2

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>they are reducible

In your mind they are reducible but in reality they aren't.

Anonymous 23/08/01(Tue)16:29 No. 15325 ID: 2fb1aa

If you don't know who Karl Lashley is the whole story is like this: Karl Lashley systematically tried and failed to find how memories are stored by ablating cortical tissue at varying locations in rats after maze-learning, and concluded that “This can only mean that the retention of the habit is conditioned by the total amount of functional tissue in the cortex and not, primarily, by the inherent properties of the synapses themselves” He destroyed tissue in different parts of the brain and realized that no matter where he destroyed the tissue the function remained the same. He couldn't find the actual memory itself and where it is stored.

>Memories are thought to be encoded by sparsely distributed groups of neurons. However, identifying the precise neurons supporting a given memory (the memory trace) has been a long-standing challenge. We have shown previously that lateral amygdala (LA) neurons with increased cyclic adenosine monophosphate response element-binding protein (CREB) are preferentially activated by fear memory expression, which suggests that they are selectively recruited into the memory trace. We used an inducible diphtheria-toxin strategy to specifically ablate these neurons. Selectively deleting neurons overexpressing CREB (but not a similar portion of random LA neurons) after learning blocked expression of that fear memory. The resulting memory loss was robust and persistent, which suggests that the memory was permanently erased. These results establish a causal link between a specific neuronal subpopulation and memory expression, thereby identifying critical neurons within the memory trace.


The funny part about this study is that they claim to have erased a memory by altering chemicals in the brain when in reality they removed a fear response. Fear is not the same as memory. You can't think to yourself that "now I will become afraid!" and as a result you experience fear. Fear is attached to danger. Fear of death when you see a bomb, a starving white shark, a poisonous snake or a man with a gun in his hand is not the same as the memory itself. If you remove fear from a memory you remove a feeling and not the experience. The shark is still there, the snake is still there, the bomb is still there and the man with the gun is still there but you lack fear. They don't even explain what a memory consists of and how you construct a specific memory from scratch.

>A specific memory is thought to be encoded by a sparse population of neurons. These neurons can be tagged during learning for subsequent identification and manipulation. Moreover, their ablation or inactivation results in reduced memory expression, suggesting their necessity in mnemonic processes. However, the question of sufficiency remains: it is unclear whether it is possible to elicit the behavioural output of a specific memory by directly activating a population of neurons that was active during learning. Here we show in mice that optogenetic reactivation of hippocampal neurons activated during fear conditioning is sufficient to induce freezing behaviour. We labelled a population of hippocampal dentate gyrus neurons activated during fear learning with channelrhodopsin-2 (ChR2) and later optically reactivated these neurons in a different context. The mice showed increased freezing only upon light stimulation, indicating light-induced fear memory recall. This freezing was not detected in non-fear-conditioned mice expressing ChR2 in a similar proportion of cells, nor in fear-conditioned mice with cells labelled by enhanced yellow fluorescent protein instead of ChR2. Finally, activation of cells labelled in a context not associated with fear did not evoke freezing in mice that were previously fear conditioned in a different context, suggesting that light-induced fear memory recall is context specific. Together, our findings indicate that activating a sparse but specific ensemble of hippocampal neurons that contribute to a memory engram is sufficient for the recall of that memory. Moreover, our experimental approach offers a general method of mapping cellular populations bearing memory engrams.

>activation of cells labelled in a context not associated with fear did not evoke freezing in mice that were previously fear conditioned
>suggesting that light-induced fear memory recall is context specific

Same thing with this study. They see mice freeze due to a fear response but they never explain what the memory itself is made of. They can measure activity within the brain and see that mice react to stimulus but they have been conditioned to react to light in a fearful manner so this doesn't prove that memories are stored in a specific part of the brain and that you can somehow affect the actual memory since they haven't explained what a memory actually is. There is only physical action and reaction and nothing more.

Anonymous 23/08/25(Fri)09:55 No. 15333 ID: 62090e


Anonymous 23/09/03(Sun)19:25 No. 15337 ID: 2fb1aa

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>Learning in the Octopus
>The animal cooperates readily in laboratory experiments. Tests of its capacities before and after brain surgery lend support to the idea that there are two kinds of memory: long-term and short-term

Another man called Brian B. Boycott did similar research like Lashley except in octopuses. He removed tissue inside the octopus vertical lobe and found that the memory, quite paradoxically, is stored both everywhere and nowhere.

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